Approved For Release 2003/0514MM" LU111L I TRANSCRIPT SG1 SPECIAL SESSION 812 A SESSION TWO #00: From the latitude and longitude -that you gave us, along with the photograph it is apparent that the building is in the Washington, D.C. area. -And, what I'd like to have you consider, and we can discuss this after the session, is whether or not you want to do. it's been my observation, particularly in. in the last experience that #99 has had working in the archeological area in Egypt of the value of proximity. We have been working on that project for over a year from here, From the United States. And while the input has been in some cases amazingly detailed, what #99 has reported after being on site - on the (not audible) and the sphynx and this area, reinforces what the literature has told us and #99 . by previous experience is that -there is . there is importance, that proximity is important. What I'm suggesting is a consideration of driving to and around the building and to see what additional information #,99 can pick up by being closer to the -target. You know, I'd like to have you just think about that as a. . as we go through the thing. #6.5: 1 am not in a position to make a decision on that. #00: Yeah. #6.5: Okay. Washington, within do not Okay. Granted, I know that it is in the DC area - whatever that means - a radius of 20 miles I guess. But, I know and have never been to the building. So. #00: Well, its a suggestion and you may want to pass it on. You know we could do that Friday morning and I could we could cut the tape in -the car. #6.5: Um 11m. #00: And make it available to you. #6.5: Okay. Fine. I will. , I will- be back on one. . two. . I probably will give you a call Thursday night. "AlrTl, CLASSIFIED BY: MSG, DAMI-ISH In I Ap 6?@ej oJr4el 3/09/1%P F b-00788ROO0500940001-4 05163OZ JUL78 To 0 9?E S 0 1 JLU11 IL I REVIEW ON: Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 =U111L 1. #00: Okay. All right. PAUSE #00: All right, #99, we have let's take . . . discuss the three points. First of all I would like to have a . . a real concentrated effort and I will -try to assist you in this in being very sure of where we are operating as a. function of time. This is not a problem, but this is something that we must recognize - that you have a capability of shifting the -time forward and back,as well as operating in the current ti.meframe, so . . what we're interested in in this room and this building is what is going on contemporarily - at the present time. And, lot's see if we can clear up the . . the SG1A issue of the number of the room. The room was given On several occasions on the tape, and I corrected you one time after SG1A , you had said =I said and you didn't, SGI you didn't say anything, you just went on. Is there a significance of = or was that §G1 just simply a lapse on your part as far as the number is concerned. A #99: No. It isn't because. . . I remember numbers very well. In other words, anyth sychically that comes as a number, you know, these SGI numbers are clear. The 303 number came in as a flash into my mind that I had to pa some A attention to number I said ]room and SGI I'm going -to stick hat because o. e psychic input that I have there. That it must ASGI have some reference in some way which we did _ A SG1A not discuss, to F I #00: Well, let's have a little. . a, small debate about this #99. You know,.I accept what you said, but I recall at least on one occasion, you were - I don't think in an altered state of consciousness - I think we were having a discussion like much as we are now and in the pattern of speech YOU Said in room Now, SGI you know, I think that was a . . I don't think that was a psychic input at that point, b ut of A course you could have had -the imprint of = SGI at that point. But I am recalling on one occ asion SGIA how was used by you. A #99: If it was in error, from my previous work, I would have not repeated it twice, once I was corrected or three times. That's a very important factor I found withi also. SGI Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 Crnn -r A Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : ClPtjEVU_jjTErFMMM00940001-4 We had ignored that in the very beginning. And later on ed that P whet@er its SGI SGIA, room or " connecte with that room, I N"Mol but I did s ay room It had some signifi- rG I cance. I mean in areas. So I am not going to dismiss it. A #00: Okay. #99: As such now. Whether there is a room in SGI that building, I don't know. I mean I have not, you know, made that whole statement in A there such. But there's something connected SGIA with F1 in the building. #6.5: The problem that that posed for me was some of your other statements saying that one something spontaneously leaps out at you, whether it be a number or whatever, it usually is significant. #99: Yes. #6.5: The way it came up at least once in the text and the way you're explaining it now, that you may have gone to because that was more SGI important to you the mission you're on. A #99: Let me put it It wasn't more important than the mission that I was on, but had some relation to the mission that I was on. #6.5: Hmm. Well, we'd like to. If we could, divert slightly. . . SG1A #99: And go back to SGIA #6.5: Go to SGIA #99: #6.5: Just slightly. And tell us about SGI #00: That's fair. Let's try to clear the issue A up, #99. #99: Okay. Can we come 'back to that question. #00: Okay. #99: 1 would like it to come back as soontaneous as we go on to the. . . Let me . Let me put it this way, as we're talking I'm getting like a connection and I'm going to put it a connection like . . . as if I was walking from one area that is very highly specific or specified into another area which would Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA- 500940001-4 3 21==000 UILMIL I Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-M.P - 000500940001-4 LI)L Ulf IL i SGIA give me All right. Where it would be a front. All, right. That's the only way I ca)n explain it. At this point. #00: Okay. Well, let me ask a couple questions and you may . . just for you to think about. When you say front, you know, that term, I'm not sure I understand what a front means so I want to find out what you mean when you say front. #99: All right. #00: Front in the sense@ that that you enter SGIA into nd afte'r you have negotiated that then @,allows you egress, access rather to SG1A th e. or something like that. Or do you mean front in some other sense. #99: Yeah. What it means. . Front means. . What I mean is that . . . . you would walk in SGI there and le- ay that it was an insurance company, A #00: Okay. #99: And it really isn't an insurance company, it deals with an insurance company and may have a legitimate license as an insurance com any. But really its feeding material to SG1 A #00: Okay, so you're using front in a sense of . . of cover. #99: Cover. #00: Okay. SG1A #99: See, from -the very beginning when you gave me all right, the room was not enough for me. #00: All right. Well, let's explore that. Is SGIA SG1A and = adequate or are there other rooms also in . . . connected in the sense, perhaps not physically connected, but conceptually connected in that they're supportive of each other. #99: At -this present time I have to say this much. That the only two rooms, or two number that SG1A I'm getting and I'm going to use numbers instead of ri Now, most of the time SGI DOMS is = and F but there are areas yesterday, I was in -1 1%W001 -that I feel, and -this came you know, when I was A Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-Re"JIVRIP00500940001-4 OLUSIL Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-0010 000500940001-4 IVILr = ULU1111L I walking and when. . I was so silent through the route of the car and again this morning. that I have strongly felt -that at certain points as I was seeing something in one room, all right, the shift easily could have been into = and one of these things that the shift could be into was this high mechanical or what it was mechanical thing - but I am not sure and that is why I have to go return into the room. #00: Okay. #99: Do you follow. In other words, that some of the equipment -that I was seeing was. . it was like a split screen. All right. But showing me the relationship at the same time from one room to another. #00: All right, we have, several . . . #99: Do you follow. . do you follow that? #ao: We. . yeah, we have several possibilities then. That while the sketch you drew yesterday SG1A of it maybe still essentially accurate and that there is some ap aratus, machinery at one end and also some in @n or that you in fact had mer,ged -to the contents of two rooms and that the SG1A machinery and perhaps something else is in and not in or that there is machinery in both rooms. I mean, these are three obvious SG1A options. A fourth option is that I here are other rooms besides and F___1and we will have to explore this today. And, of course, I would be interested if there is machinery in both rooms, #99, if there is a connection. That is, if -the machines themselves - like a computer you may have the main terminal-, you may have the main processing unit in one room, but terminals in other rooms and connected by just normal wire linkage, that sort of thing. #99: Let me. . pose something as a picture running SG1A through my mijid-., Let's say. . . let's say here I am inF and let me say that I have a geographical, what I can see of the room, don't got me wrong. And my , . (not audible) another option here that I have to consider SG1A psychically. Let's say that one of the rooms within = is In other words, am I seeing you know, another room, in there. I'm not saying psychically that it is, I'm merely opening the option -that it may all be, you know, one -ftool-11 floor which appears more at this time, some kind Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CnCnnr,,r __ 500940001-4 '5@ `,71L 011 L T -_ - - SGI A SGI §G1 A SGI A SGI A Approved For Release 2003/09/10 CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 swom arm" of like. . I cannot visualize the room as SG1A being one room = like this. It is extended for me from what I could gather last night as I was moulding over it. It is not one that I walk into a small room and here is room = SGI . and its just a small room. There is an extens-ion that I see and that's what last night - I was A very silent and I was trying to put together, what is this extension. Is this extension another room connected with it, or a separate room. But =did play an. important part in SGI my thinking last night, because I realized that I have never come out with a number that A is not meaningful.. #00: Okay, #99, just before we went on -tape, another possibility is that = has a significance other SGI than a room number. A #99: Than a room number. #00: And so we'll. try to explore those this morning. All right, let's get back to another concern that was expressed. That is, the concept of a leakage or information leaving the suite of rooms. And, I -think just for terminology and so SG1A as to not to bias what will come out later, whether its =or I'll simply state that when I SGI SG1A say the su mean the suite that the nominal entrance is because that is the target. But A SG1A I'm gonna to refer to it as the suite now instead of = and I'm not gonna mention I want You SGI SG1A to bring that up and clear -that up for us. The concern is, that the suite, which is the target A the entrance of which is = the leak of inform- ation, is that information leakage contemporary. Is that going on right now? #99: The answer is yes. And very strongly yes. I am going to return to some of the images -that I got while we were driving in the car last night. #00: All right. #99: There is again a feeling, and I have to express that as a feeling more than an image, that there is a group in which I feel, and I'm not going to give any nationality, it could be the United States at this time, I have not made any, any . * 'where some information is being received, or certain information is gotten into which this leakage of information leaves this room. Now 6 -4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA RIDP w.,iDML500940001 W1 116 1 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 _Pronnrv CIS, DIV= I have a I have a problem. All right. .NOW, I have a problem. And the problem is this, sir. On the one side, my psychic says something and on -the other side it says something else. And, Ilm not trying to confuse myself, its just that I have to give you the impression. The psychic i.111pression is that whatever is going there . . . al i right . . . someone within the government knows of the activity. That's a strange state- ment-. #00: Well, let me let me ask a supplementary question. When you say, knows of the cactivity I think that we can presume that the customer for this particular enterprise knows something of the operation or is concerned about the operation. Is that what you mean by knows the operation? #99: No. No. I don't. That's not what I mean. #00: Oh. Can you be more precise about what you mean? #99: Yeah. I mean . . . I have to play the double- edge sword again. And when I mean double-edge sword, I mean -there seems . . . there is someone in there . . . all right . . . . . . lot me rephrase that in my thoughts and I have -to give that correctly to you. PAUSE Its only an example and its the only way I can give it to you because I'm not . . . I'll give it as an example. Let's say that I am a customer. I am a customer. That as a customer I also have a contract from somebody, you know. And that I'm playing the contract as a role so that somebody else would not know what's going on. I'm not referring to what we're doing hero, I'm merely referring that this way - there is something here where someone within our government, and I am not saying just the customer knows . . . #00: 1 . . . I'm a little confused, #99. 1 didn't follow your example very adequately enough. #99: All right. Let me. . Let me put it this way. And this is only an example to give you. . so that we understand our own jargon. Let us say that the Pentagon got someone to do some work. Here they hired this room or rooms. The work 7_ 9 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA M 0001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-jtPP%jWWJW000500940001-4 is going on for the Pentagon, but the people in the room, you know, . . . there's nothing. they're going on their business in what they're getting. Its for their work. They're doing their work, but its really somebody reporting to the Pentagon. But the others don't know. #00: All right. #99: Do you follow what I'm saying? #6.5: Are you saying that they wouldn't know that they are working for the government? #99: For the government or. . . I'm not saying that nobody knows. I'm merely saying that the implication of -the information would go to the government. #00: Okay. #99: All right. Do you follow what I'm -trying to say. That's only an example. #00: Okay, but is that. . is an example rather precise in -the sense that you Paid someone in the government knows that there is a contract- ing officer in the Pentagon, who monitors what goes on in the office. Is that what you mean by someone in the government knowF,? PAUSE #99: 1 will have to return that because I've gotta go back -to some information that's being Ted to me. #00: Yeah. I thought that we had discussed, yesterday, that the . . -that this firm. . or what goes on in the room was in fact sponsored by -the government. Do you recall that? #99: 1 don't recall it. #00: Yeah. #99: You know. . you #00: You know, this ground sounds familiar so I'm not sure that we're coming up with anything new which is all right. #99. No. I'm merely. I'm merely reputting the input of what I'm trying 'to restate whatever was said yesterday. Ar Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA in a@Wnnsnnq40001-4 OLUJIL I Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-019=000500940001-4 FOLUJIL I #00: Well okay, but let's don't worry about what was said yesterday. #99: No no no. I'm not. I'm just saying -that I don't remember what I said yesterday and I'm just going back over some of the -things. #00: Well, let me make a . . put it in a straight- forward question. Is the activity in room, in this suite, government related in that they are a contractor that does work for the government? They may do work for other . . . activities, commercial work, but do they do work for the governmeDt? #99: The answer is yes. And I don't know in what way. #00: Well, you know, if we don't . . . if it seems to be a unexceptional yes, this. . well yes, that's what -they do. . then of course some one in the government would know, . would know what goes on. #99: Its. . Its more deep than that, #00. Its more deep. It is very. . . . It is very well . . . . I'm not confused, its just that I want . . . . . because you need precision and I want -to be very accurate in what we're doing, you know, in here. There are . . . I keep seeing people in this room - more than . . as I'm seeing it now, people working. There are things going on. There are again, papers there. There are all sorts of things. But -that's only a front - you know, partially a front. But there is something much"/ deeper for a group of people in that room that are working on something very secret, very private, but there's a leakage on that -thing and that's what's troubling me. #00: Okay, well to summarize it and put it in other words - see if this is acceptable, #99. That there is a contract that is real, that has some significance, that employs the efforts of many or perhaps most of the other people in this suite. But, either within that contract or a separate. . undertaking is underway, that is more vital to the government, if not to the company of the people working in there. And it is not generally known to all of the employees this. And you have used theterm, that -the normal operating business or the contract that they are working on is . . provides some sort of cover for the more important, more secretive undertaking. Now is that a reasonable summation v of what vo h8@_@Bpjg" Approved For Release 2003/09/yo @Z@500940001-4 9 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RqQ=Mb0500940001-4 'ej I,, #99: Yes, that would be an explanation of what I'm saying. #00: Okay. Can we put a subject matter to either of these endeavors? Either the one that they nominally work on or the one for which that is provide some cover. PAUSE #99: All I can say -that -the information in which they put some cover . . is . . . . . how would I put it . . . . . . . if this does not follow the regulaties I wan.t to be as specifically as its clear into my mind. Again, I repeat. Information is passed into this office.. or this suite which is very high or very, very important. Extremely important. And the injection, again, that some of this information that's very important is also leaked out and its coming back over and over again. Whether the customer knows or whatever it is, its still coming back. And, here at -this point, comes the number SGIA #00. Okay. That's a good link, To follow that, you're saying that information comes in. That they're going to use in their analysis or some, whatever processing they do? #99: No. Its . . analysis, but something that is transferrable. #00: Okay. Well, let's go into the process of the . . the people who work there, and let's call them analysts. And just use that generally, whatever. . you know, whatever analytical work it is. They need something to work on, they need something to read or to analyze or to massage. That information comes in. Was -that the. . . you said the information comes in is very high; is that - did you mean high in the sense of a security classification, or high in what sense #99? #99: I'd say high in security. #00: Okay. Okay. So classified information and reasonably highly classified information comes in. #99: Right. Uh huh. I have to preface that when you say high, you know, classified information -the answer is yes. I have. let me give you Approved For Relea@e'2003/09/10 -1A r1_ -orn[I goes M01-4 'm-7'M VUL-1 ------ 10 P a g, r--r Approved For Release 2003/09/10. CIA4 40001-4 highly classified information. Again, an image comes to my mind but it may.not be related to (not audible). #00: All right. Let's just have it as it comes in #99. #99: As itcomes in. Let's say that you were doing a . . . you were gonna send a rocket to the sky and its something new. And lets say that these people were working on some design on -this rocket. You know, something to this effect - the design that they're going to put in together. #00: Uh huh #99: And. . . this little piece or whatever it is, all right that's now, that I would consider, you know, highly secretive or ,highly. . . #00: Um hm. #99: The rest isn't. #00: Okay. An important component part - a vital part. #99: A component part of something. Whether its on a design I'm not sure or whether its a part itself or . . . that's only as an example. #00: Um hm. #99: Something is coming in which . . . no one. If I was gonna put this here, all right, here I am. You'd look at an eraser, but let's say that I could put something in this eraser that makes it highly valuable. And., I would. you'd pass me the eraser, I would not know the difference. Do you follow what I'm trying to say? #00: Only generally #99. #99: Yeah. And you know. . in other words, something is going on which is being unaware by only a certain number of people and it seems very small. Very small (not audible). #00: Okay, but that. . . is that supposed to go on? You see, we have . . . I have a problem with two concepts now. I understand what you're saying. in __P nk rJ Approved For Release 2003/09/10: ciq7.-lKVPAWwlismiggggggMO001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-AC-ADC1000500940001-4 #99: If this is supposed to go on, the answer is no. #00: Okay. Okay. But I . . . up to th is. up until -that statement, I had -the feeling that you were telling us that the normal operation of the office covered a legitimate additional, other undertaking. Are you suggesting now that the other unde rtaking, the more secretive undertaking, is not supposed to go on. #99: Oh, its my wrong. Its my wrong. Its my wrong interpretation. I'm merely saying that some of the things within thi s under- taking is not supposed to go on. #00: Okay. #99: All right? #00; Okay, so we. . we've established (not audible). #99: Whatever -the undertaking is there which very few people know on what is being worked in there . . . NOW" #00: #99: #00: #99: #00: #99: #00; SGIA #99: #00: Is legitimate. Is legitimate.,' Okay, but within that operation, what? Something is illegitimate.-," Okay, something is going on within the . . . okay. But remember that the people . . . Then that's where the number . . . . F-1 comes in. And that is the area of the leakage also. #99: And it appears to me #00: 1 got just a. . a,look -from you. Is that ,the area where the leakage 'takes place? #99: Yes. Yes. And what appears to roe is room. It appears as a room All right. Appears SGI as a room and I have to say that. Poom. The A Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 I "moot, Approved For Release 2003109110: CIA-R 9MMM '0500940001-4 C,71 SGIA: word Room = keeps coming back and that's 1- N what I'm not . . . See, I don't know whether ft.0 its a room that they have within . . . because yesterday I drew a. sketch -that seemed to be limited. And that, last night, in my sleep, woke up from my sleep a couple of times and everything, -that room was too limited for what when I was relaxed. In other words, it looked much longer, maybe exaggerated it longer, but it was much bigger. . than what I had seen. Now. . and there appears and I have to say this, appears because psychically I am not sure. But SG1A there may be - he gave me room but it could be that there is a series of doors opening within that compound off -that room, those rooms. #00: Yeah, that's very commonplace #99. Where you have an entrance that has a number for mailing purposes, for all sorts of practical purposes, but its. . . that's why a suggested going to SG1A the concept of a suite. The entrance to suite = is simply that. It is a controlled entrance. And once you get in there, there are hallways that go to separate other rooms, to . . . . you know, the normal variety of facilities that you could expect to find. . to support the number of people that are in there. And #99: You know, I'm getting psychically, to a very crucial point here. . as you're talking #00. #00: Go ahead #99. #99: Okay. Keep going. #00: Well, okay, just let that come forward, but what I want you. to do is what was suggested off -tape that let's, let's try and overview. Let's try a fly in and I want you to . . -to go into an #99 Two state rather -than to -try to do this -telepathically. And, a strip off SG1A @ the la e-rs of the building and simply focus [ f SG1A on :::: f rom a vantage point of above and we'll. call it Suite And let's see if we can't get another sketch. Let's try 'to get another verbal description of it and try to get another sketch of this complex. #99: All right. 13 Approved For Release 2003109110: CIA-RDP96-0078BROO0500940001-4 -RDP96-0078 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA 8ROO0500940001-4 V #00: And, if you can, Y"IyRy-kho, location of SGIA OT PAUSE #99: All right, I have stripped. and the whole thing and I'm looking down. First of all, lot me . . . there's no roof over this . . this room now. And a.11 I see is the back wall and -the front as if you were going in.. I have to ex . . . I see it, at one side of the building. It is long. PAUSE I'm lool@ing down and again, I have -to repeat, - please correct me if I'm wrong - there seemed to be . . . in -there what appears and all I can say--I'm looking down on it, it appears there are divisions or rooms. #00: All right. #99: That is strong - that there are divisions or rooms. . or something to this effect here. That it is not . . I am not walking into a big room where there are . . you know, here I. there's a whole big room and there's a lot of people all around. There are separati-ons or divisions. #00: All right. We accept -that. #99: Okay. #00: Let me . . . Let me ask a question #99. Program yourself, make s we are dealing with the room the Suit 0 n as it looks today. #99; This is what I'm looking at today. #00: Okay. #99: The only -thing that I cannot place for you where I am from on top is what are those divisions. I have to put in equasion -that they are to me from where I stand and when I stood. . as rooms or divisions. #00: Okay. They could be cubicles without going all the way to the ceiling, the divisions. but they may . . . #99: But they do not employ -the whole room. #00: Okay. Now I want you to be able, when you * , after this to draw us another sket h #99 Approved For ReMasial2M3/09/1 0: CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001 (A r ft n gcr 14 SGI A Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96- R000500940001-4 rT a SG1A SG1A #00: In Suite = what else do you see beside a division of separate rooms or cubicles in that suite? What else is pronounced? #99. One thing is pronounced again. I have to which really comes back to me. is one room . . . that's very closed. #00: All right a closed room. #99: A closed room. Or a closed I have to say closed room. 'Cause I keep seeing . . . what appears to be a door with a window or a door . . you know, but I cannot see through the window or something to this effect where I would go into an area which was a, room. #00: All right. This is one of -the rooms inside of Suite F-1that you call closed. Closed means what in significance . . . #99: Its separated from every-thing else in-to the room. #00: All right. SG1A #99: That's what I'm trying to say. #00: Is there a conferencing facility in there? A conference room. #99: Its not a conference room, -to it seems to be - I have what appears -to me to be a meet, which I would call a #00; All right, in SuiteF____1what PAUSE but again, adjacent to say seemed to be place where you would conference room. else do you see? #99: Looking at here and now, objects I see some-thing again . . . . . opened. well, its like a drawing, I guess you would call a drawing table or something. At least I see on.e. If you're asking me . . #00: All right. A drafting table. #99: A drafting table. This is what I see. What its use, I don't know, this is what I'm seeing. I see a man. . . sitting on a something liko a stool. #00: All right. Approved For Release 2003/09/10: Uk@!Dpg CUM" - 001 -4 Cylan U;d Approved For #99: #00: #99: #00, #99: #00: #99: Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDf J@Mfl"00940001-4 All right. Are there any office machines that are pronounced? Again, those squares keep coming in. J Okay. And I don't. . you know, -that looks like TV screens? Like TV screens.,/,, #00: All right. #99: 1 can't tE@ll you how many but I'm saying this. I see . . . I will put at this point that that is . . . if you're asking me for something in there, that is one of the things. #00: Okay. And there are more than one of thes c squares? Let's get a general number. Is there a half dozen of these squares and are they located together or are they separated or #99: No. They're separated because I keep seeing again, people sitting, at a desk and there is a square there. #00: Um hm. Okay. Can you see someone functioning with this, this unit? What do they do? Is there a keyboard in front of it? #99: Yes -there's a keyboard. It looks, to me, as this would appear to be part of a general work that they were doing. Let me. . #00: Let me give you something to think about #99 and respond. What you've described you know it could. . could be a number of things. it could be a desk terminal computer -terminal. It could also be a word processing machine for support PE@rsonnel totype and make corrections and to edit on a (not audible) screen. Or it could be both of these. It could be a TV monitoring device. It could be a TV set. #99: No. Its not a TV set. That's for sure. -L 6 pp,, rT U U11116M 116 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : Cl 0500940001-4 #99: The reason is, that again, I see numbers but,, I cannot see writing, Now, that might be a shortcoming on my part. #00: Um hm. You're looking at the screens. #99: I'm looking at the screen. #00: Okay, you shift the perspective and I want you to say down because . . . #99: I'm seeing this, now remember, I'm. . I'm. over here on the top looking down. I'm not into the room, TIm looking down. #00: Okay, well stay there then and tell me about what other machinery, if any, you see besides these squares, tv like things. #99, I'm going to eliminate . . . for you the general -things that could be because like typewriters . . #00: Yeah. Not interested in those. #99: I'm only picking out the . . what I'm seeing I am still -troubled by this high thing that I'm seeing against -the wall. #00, Okay, is that . . let me get an orientation -to help me. As you hover over this from your perspective, the suite may be irregularly shaped, that is there may be . . . it may not be a perfect square or perfect rectangle, but is it more rectangular in shape or more square in shape if you generalized the edges? Is it longer. . . #99: Longer than small. #00: Okay, so it is more of a rectangle than a square. #99: Yeah. As T said in the beginning, it is . . . I am not walking in a cubicle this big or a room this big. I am walking in something much longer which I did not really focus in yesterday because I was trying to get . . . apparently trying to see an area more than the length -than when I was jumping. . it was from one area -to another. #00: All right. on Am I I W'AaWl 116 1 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 rr IL @ #99: Do you have any question #6.5? Please ask them as we go along. . because it becomes very . . I'm at a crucial point here and .putting, as you're asking me, time wise and your questions would be extremely important if there's some-thing that you listened over the tape you know that will get me into the things that you want. #6.5: Okay. Again, I'm interested in pursuing the same thing that #00 was talking about. That piece of equipment tba,t you're seeing as high. Okay. I'd like to get more details on that if you can. Maybe you'll have to move yourself closer. #00: Yeah. Shift yourself as necessary #99, to give a . . a detailed description as you go. #99: Yeah. Would you just turn this off for one second because when I shift, I'd like to . . . I want to be . We're getting away from -the scene but 1. Its just . . . that I'm very nervous, more than nervous and more than . . . its a negative -thing and when I . . . had the picture that was one of the things. . that was/ the first thing and that first impression got me that it was something real bad. All right. But within the compound, the whole thing, the operation, it does not look - but I could not get away . . . . #00: Let me ask you a, question about that #99. And we're referring to . .. because of a pause in -the tape, -to a, feeling an overall feeling of what you had previously reported was a heavy high tension feeling. That. . and earlier yesterday you had said -that . as if they were almost afraid to breathe. You. today you get that feeling again. #99: Again. Very strongly. #00: All right. #99: But again, added this dimension that its negative for me. #00: Okay, is this coming from Is it possible that this is essentially one, that you're picking this up from one person. Not from everybody, or is this a collective you know, whott's the source? _ffi_rnnrT Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP9A&1b1UD 5009400-01-4 18 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 #99: The source is . . . . The source is the atmosphere that I'm picking from Room = SGI #00, Okay, but, you know we accept this #99 but A is , , is there one malfactor in the room SGI who is ess entially the cause of this? A #99: 1 have to say . . . if you're saying one, I have- to say more than one. #00: All right. #99: But I'm not saying all of them. #00, Okay. Well is it the cadre of people who are working on this smaller project? #99: No. Its something dealing with a leakage of some information. Let me put it this way. This seems to be the overtone message that's coming that I have to know what that is. I don't know what you're looking for. As such. But the overtone message is coming to me is some information that is very valuable, that is very extremely valuable, from the project V that is being worked here, is being leaked out. #00: Well let me make a suggestion #99 and evaluate this. Understandably there is a person on site who is. . who is control-ling or is directing or at least knows about -the leakage and he or she is highly apprehensive about it, that -that they or he will be or she will be discovered. And this is the negative feeling that you are pick-- ing up. I mean thatperson is under great tension on a . . on a minute-by-minute basis. . . that they will lose everything if its discovered. Is -that the source of the tension? A possible source. P A U S E, #99: My hesitation is not because the answer is not yes. But you're speaking of one person and in my psychic mind I see more than one i person. #00: All right. We can. accept that. #99: Would you accept. . more, you know. #00: Sure. erpnr,T- '19 U!nrr Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003109110: CIA-RDP96-0078BROO0500940001-4 _Ornncx #99: 1 must return and I don't know whether I mentioned - a woman keeps coming back to me. #00: Um hm. You mentioned two women yesterday. #99. No. This is a special Somothing. PAUSE #00: Well tell us more about this special woman. Is she An employee? Is s 'he in -the room right now? In the suite now? #99: She's in the room right now. #00: Okay. But does she regularly work there? Does she work there eight hours a day? Or is she a visitor? #99: All of a sudden this woman appears in this room, you know. But as she appears SGI the room. . . t I ber . . . XG1 (TURN OVER TAPE TO SIDE 2) A #00: I'd like to have you try something if you can do this. (Not audible) -take that woman out of the . . of the suite and tell me what happens to the atmosphere. . -the level of tension or what. Does it change when she is not tbere? #99: It is decreased because one other person, all right, . . is calmer. #00: Well, let's -take . . . #99: If you're asking me, Does the atmosphere decrease, I have to answer yes. #00: Okay. But "Let's look for the common, more commonplace solution to this. That it really is . . it may involve security to some degree but in fact, let me suggest that it is a matter of personality. That when this woman comes in, there is a feeling of antagonism based on personality rather -than a security leak or anything like that. #99: No . )9 -prounry --001-4 Approved For Release 2003109110: C18@RDF 6 01M.. man 9 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-R%4 500940001-4 #00: You don't like that. That as a hyposis. #99: No. No. #00: Okay. Well, the person the person . . . let's try to identify the person besides -the woman who comes in and brings another level of attention and is associated with = and SG1 is associated with the leak. Is that other A . . is the person, the other person or persons male or female? #99: The other one is a male.,, #00: Okay. . Are. . Can. you narrow it down to two? The leak is associated with a woman who comes in on occasion and a man. Is there any other . is there a third or fourth party to the leak? #99: At this point, I have to say this is all that comes to my mind. SG1A #00: All right. The man is he does he spend his ki d A wor n ng ay #99: Yes. Yes./ #00: Okay. SG1A #99: But again you're saying =and the number SGI flashes again -through my mind. A #00: All right. SG1A #99: I'm making these #6.5 because I'm gonna have to place what this =whether this room SG1 is there or is it in another place - I'm being A logical here - I mean If this = is there, SGI or in another place. j*G1 #00: Okay. Well, let me ask the question. How do A you feel? Is the number of a compartment SGI or of another room? Or let put it this way, SGIA SG1A is . internal in Or is it not, is A it out of that building completely? #99: This is what I don't know right now. And I'll have the answer for you. #00: Okay. Okay. I want to shift gears slightly. #99: Lets go back to . . MM.9L0_^ 0% M" 3n1XMr""%" 21 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003109110: CIA-RDP96-0078BROO0500940001-4 SG1A #00: Lets go back to that machinery and position yourself anywhere you want - inside the machinery, outside, facing it, but in such a position as to give us whatever level details you can concerning it. #99: I'm going to give it to you starting out from the top as I strip everything. I see it . . lets say that I'm here walking, lets say that I'm here - and I'm giving you now - I'm going into room And I'm over the top. And the equipment is to my left@ And it appears that I am at the end or I cannot go any further than this equipment. #00: All right. Its against a wall, is that a fair ? #99: 1 would assume its against a, wall., but I do not see the wall. #00: Because why? Its covered by the equipment? #99: Because the equipment seems to be extremely-,' high to me. #00: Okay. #99: Now, again, I'm going to get off the psychic. Sometimes my psychic may exaggerate the length of the equipment and I have to make that known. #00: Okay, but . . well we can clear that up very quickly. Look at the floor and look at the ceiling - does the equipment go from the floor nearly to the ceiling? #99: The answer is . . as I'm seeing it, the answer V seems to be yes. #00: So it is #99: High. #00: . . assuming a nominal 8 foot ceiling, the equipment is, you know, approaches the ceiling. #99: It is not. . Let me put it this way, its not the height of a cabinet file, its much higher and much broader. Now, let me go back. And its wide. #00: Okay. UPnrT OL-U'ric H Appro.ved For Release 2003/09110: CIR-'tZDP96-0078BROO0500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 #99: But its big. #00: Okay. Are theremodules, -that is, is it solid or do you see that in fact there are. there are a number of the same type of . . of. . of machinery that is you can see where -they've been stacked next to each other - lined up next to each other. That's all one big thing? #99@ Its all one big thing.4 #00: Okay. I I'm gonna need some more details. #99: This is all (,not audible) and I keep seeing needles. Circles, needles, keep seeing something,/ that your. . knobs. . #00: Knobs, okay what else besides knobs? #99: And then as I'm approaching towards that there seems to be like . . PAUSE That's this part of it and this part over here is a little different. I don't see any knobs or anything else that's solid. #00: Um hm. #99: And down . . . As if something was coming out on paper. #00: All right. #99: Now, in my minds eye, I'm also seeing somebody operate a type. #00: A keyboard of some sort. #99: A keyboard, But I cannot put it that the key- board is on this. #00: All right. #99: It seemed to be away from it. But I don't know where, #00: All right, #99, 1 want you to follow some wires. I'm assuming that the machinery is powered by electricity. Can you tell us . . you know, is the machine plugged into an electrical outlet somewhere? Can you see those wires? ffAN --a. rnnr-r 23 d Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96AA& IET974=001 -4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: C4P-,,k78+8R000500940001-4 #99: Hold it! Hold it! Something. The information that comes from there does not come from the V room itself - its fed in. PAUSE #00: Something is fed into the machine. #99: Fed in! #00: Okay. But are you cancelling that something,/ comes out of the machine also. #99: No. No. No. That's not what I'm saying./ PAUSE 3 0 3 PAUSE #00: Let me try to help you #99. Is the machine receiving information as from an antenna. You know as a radio receiver would receive informa- tion. #99: NO. Somebody. The only way I can explain it to you is . . . . what appears to me. Lets say that here I am . . No the example is not right. PAUSE All right. Lets say I was working on. . like I've worked on Wall Street. #00: All right. #99: And suddenly over my information is being fed without my being . . . having to send information out. It does not mean that information cannot be sent out,of -that room. But I'm merely saying that the way I'm seeing it in this moment of time is -that information is coming in. Now, this . . I don't know. . its part of their work. The information is coming in. I'm not saying that its #00: Okay. #99: You know, but it appears part of the work. That's what I'm trying to say. #00: Yeah but that. . you know, welve That is reasonably commonplace, you know. Information is coming in. What's the signif . . . you know ng why are Vou Inaki k@qoOdAbyX0001hat ' s Approved For Rel6ase 200/09/10 : CIA 24 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDPI 9GO940@001 -4 low the significance of it? #99: The signtficance of this is that some of the V information in here is a code. Or something. #00: Is the . . is -the. apparatus Is the machine associated with code or incription or decription. Is that the function of the machine? #99: No, its not the, . its not -the. . the primary function its feeding these people information. Now within this information - remember yesterday I said that I was trying to find out how some- thing was getting in and out - #00. Uh buh #99: It appears to me now, and I'm not certain, all right, it only appears because of the psychic impression that I have to say this, I'm making conclusions. That some messages have to come in on that. Psychically! #00: Okay. Well, lets. . . I'm still a little confused. We're talking about the function of the machine. #99: We're -talking about the function of the machine. I . . What I am seeing is something coming out of this machine which does riot come directly from the room. Again, = comes in. SGI #00: Okay. Well, lets . . . I'll have to leave that. A #99: 1. . . merely. . I'm just giving you as it comes in to me. #00: Okay. #6.5 do you have any questions in that area. #6.5: Min min. #00: 1 frankly am in a state of slight confusion as to -the role of the machine. #6.5: So am 1. Why don't you just leave it. Listen, go from that wall all the way across, okay, like from here to -there. #99: From here to there. Okay. #6.5: And go to-the other wall. What is there? #99: Wbat I'm seeing against the other wall is 0 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CV -0 1 Ur 001-4 25 U-1, U19 AIL I - 0 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP9 K;i@.A...1_4 An t@ #99. 1 got to separate myself from the other wall. PAUSE All right. I'm over this wall . . . #00: Now this is the wall opposite the machine banks. PAUSE #99 there's a possibility -that there's more than one wall op. . . that is that . . I'll put it in a, question. Is there a wall rather immediately in front of the machine banks? And then, you know, which then -there's a door-- way you can go through and you . . . and. . I'm not sure which. wall you want him to go to. #99. lip, wants, . Ile wants me to go to the end of the room. #6.5: The end of the room. NftV001 #00: Of the suite, okay. SG1A #6. 5: 1 SG1A #99: Yeah #00: Okay. SG1A #99: The end of that is where I see this separate office which is closed, you know, an office closed, or a cubicle or some, . where you would go in. #00: And who's office or what is the purpose of that? PAUSE #99: At this point no answer comes. #00, Uni hm. #99: 1 do know - hold it - I do know that it is@ an importaat male person. #00: Ual hm . #99. You're asking me who, I don't know who. 2 6 Dpn,@ Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-R 500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-_0044Q01-4 #99: Adjacent to it is also another room. #00: Well, is it important in the sense of a #99: Its important. . Its important in the sense that it appears to me that its sound proof,/ or something because I cannot hear what is going on, and is being said in that room. #00: Okay. So there. . apparently there's some more attention to security there, but I'm after the importance of the male person in there. Is he important? #99: The importance is -that he is i.n control of the whole . . . #00: You're saying that he's the manager of the office or manager of. #99: Yes. Yes. #00: . . of the operation. #99: Okay, yeah of -the operation. This is what I'm getting. #00: Okay. #6.5: Okay, and -this other area that's sound proof that's adjacent to his office or part of his office? #99: Its part of his office. It is. , I would have to say more like, its his office. #6.5: Yeah. Lets explore -that area and tell me what's in. that area, in his office. PAUSE #99: Cut for a minute, I've got to go to the bathroom. PAUSE #00: Time out. PAUSE -27 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 QMMV00940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDPIM. #99: Yeah. What came to me. this sound proof is that certain plans for certain designs of certain things which I have not yet put my finger on, is talked about. #00: Okay. #99: All right. More than that the room does not appear as an office to me. Its . . . very - how would I put It - comfortable. Its . . I'm now walking into a man sitting at a desk with a chair behind. it. And you know I'm sitting down and be's asking me questions. / , I feel more comfortable than that in -this sound proof room. #00: Okay. #99: All right. He does have a monitor in the room. But . what I'm trying to What I'm looking at into the room is his operational . . . . . . his operational work. PAUSE The designs that are. the work that's coming to me as I'm observing in the room, they are not designing or working on a project. PAUSE They are not working on a project that is something that is completed like a tank/ Completion work of a tank. Or something. Its not like that. They're working on something which is part of a very advanced . . . . . war war. . I would say military more -than war. . design of something that is military and that is . . . not big. By that I mean its not . . I'm not building a tank; I'm not building a gun or something like that. I'm building something that goes with something else. That's what the . . the work is being done. If you Xollow that, you know what I'm trying to say now. #00: Well, yeah I follow that and lets try to build on that a little bit. Its small and its a component that goes with something else. What is . . When you put them together, what is the function? Is it in . . involved in what? Is it a weapon or is it not a weapon? oCCnrT Approved For Release 2003/09/10: ClAfkDF-9%J4UM%LTVU940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96t@40001-4 #99: It is a weapon, or it can be used as a weapon. #00: Well, all right. Let me give you another alternative. Is it involved in communications? #99: If you are asking me. #00: I'm sort oT testing . . . . . . #99: No. no. no, I mean what do you mean by communications? #00: Well, I mean is it a part of a. . of a piece of equipment by which information is sent or received? #99: No. No. #00: Its not communication equipment? #99: No. No. #00: You're satisfied that it is part of a weapon system. #99: Its part . . . I'm saying that its part of a weapon system meaning that I keep seeing water. that I don't understand whether its only one part of this - I keep seeing water. And . . I keep seeing that this would, be tested in something that has to be in-water.,/ #00: It is tested in something that has to be in water. #99: Or it goes by yeah, I'm gonna stat:e it the same way, tested in something with water. It is not something that is already marketed. #00: Okay. Is what they're working on an improve- ment of something like it that already exists or is it a new component of a weapon system or a weapon system? #99: 1 would have -to say its -in extension and if you want to use improve as an extension I will accept that. #00: Well, okay, you don't . . . . . I. . You know, I . . I was just trying to get #99: No. No. I understand. -Nump" #00: . . give you food to . . . . Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-Wp9h"M= 00940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 in ry #99. These are things I've come from the bathroom and I'm just giving you them as . . you know, as they're coming out, #00: Ha ha. Okay. I think we better move our working place in there. #99: All right. #6.5: 1 once made a mistake like that. I made my briefing up in a bathroom and it went over well so then everytime I have to give a briefing, my folks tell me - Go to the bathroom, #00: Okay, #99, this is #99: Let me . . lot me give you the word that comes -to me. #00: All right. #99: For whatever meaning it is, I don't know. it said submarine. The word submarine.,, #00: All right. Okay. #99: But. . it does not the word submarine, I don't know what it means now, and I want you to realize that I don't know what it means. #00: All right. I . . let me challenge that, #99, because, you know, this is a tangent - appears to be a tangent. Can you. . . are you. . the word submarine comes in. Is that the business of this office, to be involved in submarines? Or is there just some relationship with the thing being developed in some means? #99: Its in some relationship developed with sub- marines because I could not put a battle ship in it. #00: Okay, you. . you've gone to Naval weapon systems now. #99: But. , . the. . I know I've gone to Naval weapons. . #00: Um hm. Its all right with me. If that's what's coming in. nrT 3-a U1 ILN Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA RDP96_00788R008500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003109/10 : CIAWEE2 ALOT-94P441=0940001-4 #99: No no no no. All I'm saying is What I I m saying . . water, I'm saying that its . . . we're talking about Naval and I'm talking about, you know, under the Naval would be a battleship, but it ba.s nothing to do with a battleship or . . . unless . . . I'm eliminating more than putting . . . . #00: Okay. Okay. #99: Because I'm trying to narrow down, in my mind, what it meant that this dealt with water and its not a battleship. #00: Okay, but lets Okay, make sure that these are psychic inputs, #99., rather than logical ones. And . . . #99: Let me tell you what logically. . not logically, what psychically came to me. #00: All right. #99: And then we can work from there. It is a component part of an extension of something that deals with water. In water. Or with water. It is not . . . #00: Now see, you shiTted on us now. Previously, I understood you 'to say, it is a, component part of a weapon . . . #99, Of a weapon. #00: Of a weapon system. #99: Yes a weapon system. #00: You're still staying with that. #99: Yes, I'm staying with -that. Because I'm -visualizing something in my mind . #00: All right, now go ahead and say your statement. #99: All right. And . . the water. . something about water came in after that. And the word submarine. Now, I have to say that submarine might be a logical thing or it might be a psychic - I am V not sure. And I want to clear -that with you. #00: Okay. All right, well let me ask you, if the . . this component. . or part of the weapon system, if -the water relationship is . . is exclusk@ke - that it will only be used in connection with water M&REM040001 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP -4 31 -7 3T.-URL Approved For Release 2003109110: CIA-RDP96-@97,$,"00500940001-4 #99: The answer is no. #00: Okay. Otherwise it could be used on land as well as on water. Is the linkage withv" water . . . #99: An important factor.v #00: An important; factor. #99: Yeah. #00: But is it important in the sense -that it is associated with . . with testing the system rather than applying it when it gets issued to -the field or to the operating troops? Do you have any feeling in this area? #99: Yeah. Let nle put it this way. One, it would be used, what . . it appears psychically, it says that it would be more, of more value in water than in . . . . in an airplane or on a ship or something like this. See, I'm not making. . I cannot . . . I'm seeing the part. #00: Um hm. Well, describe the part. Now, #99: All right. Its a very small thing, Maybe. -this big . . . #00: All right. You have your hands about a . . and a . and you've focused them as if its a circle. Is it a globe or is it a ball sort of #99: Its. . Its. Its Its long. #00: Well, lets just . lets just ease the tension. Sketch it for us please #99. #99. Well, I don't know if -this is in its complete form, but it appears . . . . . . PAUSE I cannot fi-nish it here, I don't know why. And -there appears to be . . . #00: Now are you drawing this to scale; is this the actual size oT it? #99: Yeah. Just about the actual size of it. Yeah. #00: Okay. Pron Approved For Release 2003109110: ClA?PP96-0dMLMftM940001-4 -1. r1.3716n.ArTnnQAnnnj Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA- L-01 - -4 U'7!@;UIAL #99: All right. Its not big. #00: All right. I don't know what we're going to end up with. #99: Yeah. Yeah. On -the drawing board, it will probably be something. something as -this. #00: Well, this is an 8 by 10 piece of pa per. Do you mean your drawing? #99: My drawing here, all right, is just telling you. V, that its a minature or a small, its not as big as this paper. #00: All right. So, it looks like someth ing four inches by two inches, something like that. #99: Something. And there appears to be little dots. And there seemed to be some kind of wire and I'm slipping that in-to something. #00: Okay, are we . . . I want to make sure that you're not . . xraying this. Are we. . . if I picked it tip and looked at it, is this what I would see without taking it apart? #99: No. No. You may see the dots, but you would not see the inside. #00: The wires. #99: The wires. #00: Okay, the wires are internal. #99: Internal. This is . The covering of this is of a metal. . but its not a metal that I would . . . . its a special type of metal... #00: Okay, that will be . . . did you say that would be slipped inside of something? #99@ Slipped into somethi.ng. #00: All right. Is that an explosive in any sense? PAUSE #99: Would you rephrase the question? May I rephrase the question,? #00: Um hrri. Yeah. Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-Abp Aremi 940001-4 --q, . ;71 W Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 -D-Mnr,-r ULFURET- #99: If I were to rephrase -the question: Would this add to the explosion of something that went off, the answer would be yes, #00, Okay. But that . . Now let me ask questions about your statement. Is it . . . a fuse in the sense -that it initiates an explosion? That it is a. . . say that . . a component that senses a target and sends a signal -to the explosive device that now is the time to det1nate? Or does it have anything to do with fusing? #99: 1 don't know #00. It keeps coming back 'that I see water and it deals with water. #00: Okay. #99: LOtme go back on #00: But that's. I. . . I. I . . . accept that and lets just sort of set that aside as an agreed . . it has something to do with water. #99: Yeah. What I'm zeroing in right now - now I have to make you understand that not everybody in that office is aware of this. #00: All right. #99: 1 am picking this -tip from the office of the man that we were talking about. All right. #00, All right. Okay. We'll accept that. #99: Now, I don't . . . I neither believe. . that its built there. #00: Well, then what do they do there? Are they in . . . what phase of this development goes on in that at least in his office? PAUSE #99: Maybe I should rephrase that. -the assembly . . . the assembly of this - and I have some- thing. . . Let me put it this way #00, 1 have to say this, psychically again, again. I am. I have a psychic feeling that this project of this thing is not finished, Do you follow what I'm saying? #00: All right. 34 orp"UNT 110TWul 1 -in I Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP9612nPA00500940001-4 Mr #99: That its put together, but its not finished and what I'm picking up is how its going to be used, in what way i ts going to be used. I think that's what I'm. I feel. strongly not think, feel strongly, this is what. what I'm seeing Is a finished product. #00: Okay, that's important but lets shift back. #99: But I'd I'd . . And what I'm seeing. . . is that what is happening is that. . when I say that its not built tbere, I'm merely saying that the drawing is almost complete, of being completed. And I'm speaking about here and now. #00: Okay, woiJId it be fair #99, to say that they are designing parts of this in that office? #99: 1 will accept that. #00: Okay. #99: But I will also accept . . . I have to add something. It appears -to me. . . and when appears I mean seeing psychically. . is there appears to be at least one of these with this man that I'm seeing in this room which we're talking soundproof. #00: Okay. A prototype or a hand made model or something. #99; Its more than a handmade. #00., Well I say that versus production. #99: All right. Okay. But -this off. . . -this is . . . . It is a . . . Its something and its for the use . . . . . It could be used in other ways also #00. #00: What other ways #99? You mean in other in more than one weapon system? Or #99: In more than one weapon system. #00: Okay. Or do you also mean that it could be used in . . other than in a weapon system? #99: No. It could be in . @ I will have to put It can be used in a weapon system and it could be used outside of a w(:,,,apoii system, It does not always mean that it is for the M Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA bP9 *E RIff"I"0001-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 rrnnr"w tTl #00: (DELETED FOR REASONS OF SECURITY) #00: All right #99, we were -- after a short pause you were describing a device, a small device and you sketched it, And, but you associated this, with the office, the separate soundproof office of the manager or person. Why did you want. to put it in there? I mean is this information or the plans or parts of the drawin,-,- not also known or shared with other people In the office, or . . I mean this is the question. All right, let me put, it this way. Positively. Is it the function of the office to work on this project, parts of this project, the six or seven people who are normally in the office? PAME SG1A SG1A #99: 1 don't see six oi, seven people in this office. #00. 1 meant in the suite #99: #00: Yeah. #99: 1 Mean. . there are more than just half a dozen people in the . in the room. #00: All right, how many people are in suite SG1 A #99: 1 don't know. You know, Remember yesterday I said that. t..hese were a number of people that I saw. #00: Uh huh. #99: But this is . . . . PATJSF I'm going to have to get back to the trend of thought that this. , this office of this thing. #00: Well ., you know, basie,,illy, my question is, have you come across in this device or this component, is this typical of whit , g s o n i n t ha t o f f i c-, (,@ ?I menn *that Lhe function of the office.? Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-0 40001-4 36 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788 l' lrnn rT TYIV.71. "In #00: To participate in the design or evaluation or something. . . . #99: The ansu@er is yes, I'm gonna say that. #00: All right, can you give me an example. I mean what else do they, work on? You talked about a component of a . . of a weapon system. #99: Well whatever the . . to me . . . it appears as a weapon or could be used as a weapon. #00: Okay. All. right. But . . its a . I. . I'm . . speaking without knowing, but that's a big office and there are a lot of people there. Surely there's more than one project. Can you identify any other project? #99; Oh. PAUSE This one is the strongest, But I'll have to come back to that question #00. #00: All right. #99: Okay. I know that there are somo other things going on in the office and, that there are other projects going on and that there's not only one project going on. #00: Okay, well can we be specific about -that. Can we . . . . With those feelings and with that knowledge -then, what is the function of that office? I mean, what is the business that they're in? PAUSE #99: Why don't you . Do you want to stop that for a minute and let me go back into the office. It may take a couple of minutes. If you want to, but if you want -to stay here. . . #00: Well, let's let it roll and because and take your time so we don't have iniss anything. P A U S E' 37 er-ow: Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-4...... 14W. V1rVUU 1-4 Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-00788RIMOUld - U'AliV111111116 1 #99: 1 can say that there are different projects that have been assigned in-to this office to work on in which they are of variable . . degrees. By that I mean, that I Im not 1 can see maybe two or -three persons working on one project. Another two or three may be working on another. In other words, there are various Do you following what I'm trying to say? #00: Yes, I understand this, #99: All right. And that they are assigned certain projects 'that they work with and some of these be . . the work, the basic leg work, the design, the things that they work with is being done there. , . and carried. #00: Okay, you said design. Is that could wo say that's the function of the one of the functions of this office or the, main function is to design things or . . . #99: More than design. . . Yes, to design or put . . by design I mean put -together. . certain V solid. objects - that is to be used, The design. #00; Okay, now that's more than design. When you say put together, do you mean put together in a physical. sense? #99: No. No no no no. #00: The parts come in and -they . . . #99: No no no. I'm merely saying that 'they're drawing them, you know, #00: Okay. #99: Its for their work and then would be put together from there. I'm not saying, #00, psychically, that they could not be putting one part -together -there . . . but they're not manufacturing it. #00: Well, no, okay, the point I'm trying -to make is if there, . . if we're going to be if we're going to categorize it, and that's either an assembly plant, manufacturing plant, or its not. #99: Its not . .. I do not see it as an assembly plant where you . . you know, where every V part is put in there and everything. The Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-0078ep 1-4 , M 38 -777 7; @, 1 1r: AL+ Approved For Release 2003109110: CIA-RDP96-0078BROO0500940001-4 _o"_ n r'T JLU]t - I- complete part is there, and out it goes out of there, #00: In other words, what you're what you have said you're not discounting that. . on occasion at least some parts will come in . . #99: Oh. . I'm not discounting that whatsoever. #00: Well, can you be positive about it? #99, 1. . I Im positive. #00: They may do some #99: The main reason I'm seeing -this object, logically, I'm assuming both logically and psychically, that there are some parts a (not audible). #00: Okay. That particular object you're talking about you say is . . . exists in a tangible form right now in the office. Is that what you're saying? #99: I'm saying that (a) that something like this - I see something like this in the office. #00: Okay. Okay. As well as the design for #99: As the design. Yeah. #00: Well does that explain the drafting board, and the paper and the things that you described earlier that . . . . that . . . I mean. that. Well, let me ask - what -type of people work there? Are these . . . you know, can you give a discipline? You know, get in -the mind of one or two of these people and tell. me - what are they? Are -they engineers? Are they physicists? Are they chemists? Are they what? And if there is more than . . I mean if there is a dominant discipline, what is that dis- cipline? Are more of them physicists -than anything else? Are more of them mechanical engineers than anything else? Let's try to you know get a . . some labels on these people. #99: 1 have to . I'm gonna. , . The general opinion . the general psychic opinion, psychic opinion, psychic impression is . . . that its not one discipline. That they need to pool together different people to work on this. Approved For Release 2003109110 : CIA-RIPP96-00788_R nrgQAQQ0J-4 QP ,)K NNW' Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-007j2PP9CC:Z001-4 LILUJIL I @ #00: Okay. Different disciplines are represented. #99: Represented. #00: But is there a you know, quickly. . say. . make a. . hell, a canvas of them. Are there more chemists -than any other? Are there more engineers? #99: No. I do not I don't see chemists. #00: Yeah. Okay. #99: 1 don't see chemists. I would say engineering and physicists . . . . #00: Okay, is . . . #99: Engineering, physicists . . . but someone else. v #00: All right, are there any esoteric - that would be a good clue. You know, that would be an important hit. #99: What do you mean by esoteric? #00: Well, something that is a unique discipline. #99: The answer is yes, but I don't know what it is. #00: Okay. You don't know what that discipline is. #99: Yes. #00- Okay, keep that in back there., if it comes to you, well lot us know. #99: But see . . . #00: But you see that would be an anchor. That would say, you know, if the . if -there is a . . . a. . a. . specialist in plasma or something that is . . . #99: If you're asking me Do I see a specialist or something really minutely specialized person, or persons. #00: Uh huh. #99: Very specialized in something that you need that person. . the answer is yes. #00: Um lim. Okay. And that's fine and I . . . whenever it can come out I'd like -to know what that person's discipline is, What h" J&o~J047~D,~Ci)5~-PDP96-00788ROO0500940001-4 Approved For Release 40 A 116 w, Approved For Release 2003109110: ClA-RDP9@_NQCAAft -4 #00: Can we get a gender on that person - is it a male or a female? #99: 1 have a male. #00: Okay, And give me some sort of description of him iT you can. PAUSE #00: Is he in the office right now, today? PAUSE #99: I'll come back to that. . there's something And I'll have to explain why. Its a male. I cannot give you . . , but certainly. . lie looks young, not old bat something on the other side keeps. . By old, I mean he's older than he looks. Do you follow what I'm trying to say? #00: Okay. Ile's an older man with a youthful appearance. %%Woolf #99: Well, this is what appears to me because age is very hard for me to put into . . into context. And he's not oversized. Ile's a very well trim person.. #00. All right. Where did he go to school #99, on the East Coast or on the West Coast? Or Mid-West? PAUSE V And let's make that his graduate school. He may have gone to more than one school. Where did be get his terminal degree? PAUSE Let me ask a new one. Did he get his terminal degree in the United States? Or was it outside of the United States? PAUSE #99: I'm gonna have to say., When you say terminal his last degree, he may have a Masters, PhD and so forth, I would put the terminal degree in the United States and it looks like on -the East Coast more than the West Coast. Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-FIPP96-0 RrPW;Tq_4ooo1-4 --7-- @@ ,@@ Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96;-02.Qe"Q5jP940001-4 INTET' #00: Okay. All right. Again, if you get an impression of one school over another, why I would be interested in that if it comes out. #99: The big thing that all right . . . . Again, I have eliminated New York and I've eliminated . . . . I have to give you New England area. #00: Okay. #99: And I would place it . . . I would place that Massachusetts. At least as it stands now. #00: Okay. Again, this is. . this is important #99, what we're doing now. . because it . . it will be confidence builders with potential customers. . to show the type of areas in which we can work. #99: Okay. I'm a little puzzled . . . . . . . We're going to go back to your question. I'm a little puzzled about whether I am describing the airtight room, the . . . you know, the soundproof room as being -the customer you're talking about. But I'm gonna leave it there. #00: Okay. You know, I don't . . . I don't think that I want to pursue any questions in that area, but . . . unless you can claxify and tell us why you're puzzled about it. You know, but, you mean you're doubting that in fact this is the customer -that . . . . #99: I'm not doubting. I'm merely saying that PAUSE I'm merely saying -that the customer Oh, . . what I'm trying -to say #00: Okay. #99. Well, we'll come back. I will come There's something more -than the customer involved with that. . with that what I call a soundproof thing or what appears to be a soundproof - that's all I want to say. Okay. And I'll leave it there. Null/ 42 Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R U 1-4 00@N )@9400 - Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788 9400 -4 #00: #99 the leakage @s important. And its one of several important -things, But 1, think we have enough input on that right now. I don't want to question that area unless somethin@ spontaneously comes in and then of course, you will come out with it. #99: 1 can tell you this spontaneously and. . it hit me - that the leakage is very dangerous. #00: Okay. (Not audible) #99: And -the big thing here is that I feel very strongly and psychically emotionally that our customer is not 'that fully aware. #00. Okay. And, you know, it is accepted certainly by call of us in the room agree that that is a dangerous thing. Any leak,unknown leak, is dangerous and will be looked into but right now we won't pursue -that any further. Except Tor one phase and that was brought up - -that may be related - and that was brought up at the beginning of -the session. I want to ask a few questions about the death or -the killing of the young man that you alluded to yesterday. if you can cycle back to this. Just to remind you of what you told us. You envisioned a . I . a conference room, or at least a room in which there was a table around which there were six participants - one female who you described. as attractive, youngish - and five males. END OF TAPE ?) P or Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RE)P96-00788ROO0500940001-4