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  NOT RELEASABLE TO FOREIGN NATIONALS
  ORCON
  GRILL FLAME
  PROGRAM
  SESSION REPORT
  CLAS54FIED BY: MSG, DAMI-ISH
  05163OZ JUL 78
  REVIEW ON.'~~
  GR
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  SUMMARY ANALYSIS
  REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION CD-25
  1. (S) This report documents a remote viewing conducted in compliance
  with a request -from SOD, J39 OJCS, Pentagon, Washingtong D.C. The purpose.
  .of the session was to provide information relevant to the hostage situation
  in Iran.
  2. (S) The remote viewer's impressions of the target are provided as.raw
  intelligence data, and, as suchy have not been subjected to any intermediate
  analysisp evaluation or collation. Interpretation and use of the information
  provided is the responsibility of the requestor.
  3. (S) The protocol used for this session is detailed in the document,
  Grill Flame Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing:Protocol (S), undated.
  4. (S) Following is a transcript of the viewer's impressions during the
  remote viewing session. At TAB A are drawings made by the remote viewer
  reference his impressions of the target site. At TAB B is target cuing
  information provided the remote viewer.
  5. (S) The remote viewer was asked to locate KEVIN HERMENING and to
  describe his surroundings. The viewer described a gym-like area, but was
  unable to present a view of the entire building. However, he was able to
  describe surrounding features which might be helpful in pinpointing the
  location of HERMENING. The viewer stated that HERMENING and 4 other hostage,,
  were doing exercises. The viewer felt very strongly that a GREGORY PERSINGEf
  was one of the other hostages at this location. Three other hostages are
  identified but the viewer did not feel very confident concerning their
  identification
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                                    TO
 TRANSCRIPT
 REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION.CD-25
 TIME
        #6.5: This will be a remote viewing session for 28 May 1980;
 on-tbrget time is 0900 hours.
 PAUSE
 Okay #8.5 it's time to start today's session. Relax,
 relax. For the past few minutes now you!ve been focusing
 your attention on the photographs that I showed you' ,
 I want you to relax and concentrate. Describe the area
 where Kevin Hermening, Kevin Hermening is located.
 Relax and concentrate on the area where Kevin Hermening
 ...... describe it to me.
 PAUSE
 +5.5 #8.5: ... I got him. I don't knowov..,%vas., .... seen all these,
 buildings.,,and no Kevine got him.
 I got Kevin and 4 other people in a big room. I think
 it's o.oI got gymnasium. High windows Like clear story.
 Veryt very high windows, It's, i .t1s, H's not like a
 basketball court. It's like a weight lifting gym. Kevin
 ...is in front of the people facing the same direction
 ...they seem to be following his lead in calisthehici.
 PAUSE
 #6.5i Okay. You're doing very well. You're doing very well.
 I want you to focus your attention, focus your attention
 on those other individuals that are with Kevin and describe
 them to me.
 +09 #8.5: 1 think I see... o.early twenties .... on the left ..... early
 twenties ..... brown hair ... weighs about 100... ~ol60&o**.
 roundish face. Good shape. Slim, slim guy behind him.
 Dark hair. Wiryp tough, not, not, not muscular.. A long
 face.....and another guy there ..... I don't know ..... 20 to
 23 ... lighter hair, well, well-groomedq muscular. Kind of
 likes himself, I think. Very vain. Older guy on the right.
                  don't know why, but I just .... oh, hell. It seems I
 warrant officer comes to mind. Early 30s I think or
 siooc'ky .... 5..... 5-9, brown, brown hair. Normally has,
 normally has a heavy beard. Last'guy has some problem
 with his leg or foot. I had the feeling it was his right.
 #6.5: Okay. You've done very well. You've done very well #8.5.
 Now before you move on I want you to go by these individuals
 again, and study them very closelyo Studytheir face very
 closely so that later on when we look at some pictures we
 will be able to find them. You don't have to tell me
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                            anything. Just look at them. Study them very closely
                            

                            .and,when you think that you could identify them
                            later
                            

                            let me know and we'll move on. Okay.
                            

  #8.5:                     1 think I-got the older guy.
                            

  #6.5:                     Okay. Just take your time and focus on them.
                            

  #8.5:                     Younger guy. I don't know if I saw all of them.
                            

                            One guy appears very athletic. Skinny guy looks very
                            

                            unique ... a long face. Little guy on the leftis
                            kind of
                            

                            non-descript. -They keep touching their toes.
                            

  #6.5;                     Okay. You study their face. You study their faces
                            so
                            

                            you can identify them later.
                            

  +15 #8.5:                 Something very strong about, about breads. I don't
                            

                            understand it. Slice ..... big loaf of bread with
                            the
                            

                            end cut off keeps appearing out of nowhere. I don't
                            know
                            

                            why.
                            

  #6.5:                     Okay. Don't worry about it.
                            

  #8.5:                     It's like an intrusion. Reminds,me~of an executive
                            

                            gymnasium ... exercise room ......... I sense fruit
                            trees
                            

                            nearby. Appears, appears to be no windows in the
                            walls
                            

                            the roomp but a raised portion over the center of
                            the
                            

                            room has windows in it that lights up the room. Wait
                            a
                            

                            minute.
                            

                            PAUSE
                            

  +18:45                    1 sense some other people. Not in this room, but
                            not
                            

                            too far away. Kind of foul mood, boredf lounging
                            on
                            

                            cots. Small bed. I see, I see 5 or 6 of them. I don't
                            

                            see them. I'm just aware. They were there behind
                            ......
                            

                            down the hall in some other room .... spaces somewhere.
                            

  #6.5:                     Okay. Now. #8.5 1 want you to relax. Clear your mind
                            of
                            

                            what we have been doing here. Relax now. I want you
                            to
                            

                            change your perspective I want you to go outside
                            of this
                            

                            building. Go up in the air 1500 feet and look down
                            on
                            

                            this building where Kevin and the others are located
                            on
                            

                            1500 feet and look down on this building where Kevin
                            and
                            

                            the others are located and describe the area to me
                            with
                            

                            the thought of how we-can locate this place. Relax
                            and
                            

                            concentrate on that. How can we locate this place
                            where
                            

                            Kevin and the others.are located.'
                            

                            PAUSE
                            

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                 +23!3j #8.5t. I. was distracted. I saw people. Looked like.... -on the
           ground .... looked like maybe ...... I saw things that .....
           symbolic of ...nautical. The room Kevin was in appears
           to:be a wing of building. I can't put it togethero but
           I see a roof ,reminds me of-a-giant umbrella ... round
           and pie hape segments ..... very-`-sftnri.4QW I
                  .s opei
           f
           61re-s trees here.1nthe front, in front of obit h e
           tree'
                 r
           buildings is a pattern, I can best describe z shaP
           1s
                  dl
           u
           ~,n gs
                                          ac s
           Must be 40, 50
           something like a maple leaf. feet S&
           something 1Ik
           I can't tell whether it's a real low wall shap:d liked he
           I can' ttell
           contour,of maple leaf .... it's a real low trimm d hed ....
           contour of ma
           on,'t feel the building that Kevin.is inhas rec izable
           on' tfeel
           ea nearby ... adjacent building ... image of ing is
           fea n .rb
           fli kerin b ding., with
           f,j ckerjn
           maple leaf...looks like some kind ot the roof.,..shallow
           slope...masonry.
                 #6.5: Okay. Very good. Is there anything else? Tell me about
           anything else in the surrounding area that catches your
           attention that would help us focus on the building that
           Kevin is in.
                 +27 #8.5: A couple of hundred yards away, in front of the building
           is a little linear patch of green. Guess it's a row of
           shrubs or trees. I feel uncomfortable 'about the greenery
           because logic tells me water is very important. I still
           see alot of green here*'_--r-ztorr1t-know what--i-fl-sworth,
           but I saw something that looked like small striped melons
           nearby ...... might isolated region ....... Outside of this,
           outside of this complex doesn't seem to be alot of
                       wou xp t t
           +30 din 1k yo ld e e .ct in ~acitY- I badd thee
           _h L g
           p ac mi t
           u gs e ~he 0e gh avcei~been s~ometh~:n
           feel n tha i.
                                01.
           try 1~h
           u i_ml I
                  sc
           ke a ~as~~a
                 #6.5: Okay #8.5, very goodv very,good. I have no further
           questions at this time. 'Do you have anything you'd like
           to add?
           #8.5: 1 don't think so.
                       #6.5: Okay. Very good. Why don't you relax then for a few
           minutes, stretch and then we'll do some drawings, okay.
           Relax and unwind a bit. I'll put the tape recorder on
           hold. Okay. I have this back on #8.5, why don't we go
           ahead with your drawings.
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                       #8.5: I'm having trouble drawing this, but there was a...
            the walls were blank, and there was a raised portion
            near the center with the windows in that. Put a little
            uh ..... Kevin was right along in here...uh ... doing'...
            he was doing some kind of swing thing with his hands...
            touching opposite toes, and was.a person in here, and
            one there, one there, and one over here. The blond guy
            was here, skinny, tall. This guy was older. Most of the
            stuff they was doing was ... uh ... touching the toes, and
            swinging their hands and all bent over. Not a very good
            drawing.....and there was windows on the opposite side
            here just like that wall..
            #6.5: Okay.
                   #8.5: Somewhere off in that direction, by the wayp thist this
            wall here is exposed to outside. The left wall is
            exposed to the outside. The wall to the right was attached
            to the building, and back through there, somewhere,were
            some more people laying on cots.
            #6.5: Okay.
            #8.5: God. Is there anything else?
                #6.5: Well. Why don't you tell me about this, this room......
            you described it as a wing.
                #8.5: Yeah. It was a wing to a larger portion of the building,
            and I felt that the wings did not come ..... all -the wings
            didn't come off at right angle. I felt there was a
            different angle of 90 degrees there. I-couldn't put it
            all together.
            #6.5: Okay. Why don't you see what you can do.
                   #8.5: Uh .... it was flicker imagery.. -I'm sorry. It would
            come~and go ... I didn't know where I had a hold of.this
            other building .... had the maple leaf in front of it or
            it was part of the same one...uh...or just what. I
            wasn't comfortable how, how this attached. Except,.I
            did feel that the angle was not a 90 degrees. I ~ : -
            felt there were other wings -that also were not 90 degrees.
            #6.5: What about this?
                  #8.5: Part of the same complex of this big building that had
            the maple leaf thing in front of it.
            #6.5: Okay. Why don't you draw that?
               #8.5: And , let's see.....overlooking the top ..... turned around
            in my head ...................... 0 ......................
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           #8.5: Thing looks familiar. This, some kind of shape like
  this was in front of the building,
           #6.5: When you say in front of the building do you mean the
  building that Kevin's in or .............
  #8.5: No, no. I was looking for features that were unique.
  If you've got 50 shoe boxes ... same color' in a room, it,ls
  pretty hard to ..... So, I looked around for things that
  were unique, and right nearby'was this building that .....
  for some reason, appeared to have, you know, like a
  main office,building of the headquartersq or ......
  I had a feeling there would normally be a, you might
  expect to see a flag pole in this area in front. Idid
  not see one. I felt it was the sort of thing that you
  might, might see there. This appeared to be a hedge....
  or a wall or something.
  #6.5: Sure. But, it gave off the pattern of a maple leaf.
           #8.5: Well, looking down over the top of the roof, it sort of
  reminded me of it. All the points
  I didn't get the feel for the number,of windows or
  anything. I just felt it was 2-stories. Thf; attached
  to other buildings~ somehow. It was not this one building
  along. There were other wings and things,jetting off in
  other directions. Butv I can't quite, can't quite get it
  all together. There was alot of greenery outside. Fruit
  trees were near the building that Kevin was in across in
  this direction...the way he's facing....through that wall
  was some fruit trees. I saw some melons in thevicinity.
  Oh, there was 2-300 yards in front of this building was
  a line of trees or shrubs ... green.
           #6.5: That was that linear pattern that you d escribed earlier.
  Okay.
           #8.5: Yeah. 1 felt I was quite concerned about everything
  because, I don't know. I was worried about the use of
  waters. It occurred to me, you-know, I really didn't care
  about water, but still there was uneasy feeling about it.
  I don't know what to make of it.
           #6.5: Okay. This roof like thing that you described earlier,
  as a giant umbrellao
           #8.5: Oh, yeah, yeah. This was part of the complex.t.real
  close, like .... uh ... This is the shape of the roofp and
  it definitely had .... you can see these seams....these
  pie shape patterns.
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            #6.5: Ahh. Now, is this just another-building nearby or....
            #8 .5: Uh ... I was looking down on top of it, and it looked like
            it was a portion of a complex. Like you'd have ......
            maybe, you know, there was different buildings around, and
            this thing was just a big thing that was in the .........
            That's not the exact shape the way the rectangle is put
            together. There.was.a conglomerate of geometric patterns
            and this big circle overlapped it. It stood higher.
             #6..5-. You know what itsi-. relationship was to this building with
            the maple leaf pattern?
                   #8.5: It was about 150 feet away in the back, back over in this
            direction here.
            #6.5: What we have.then he put an X on dr awing number 2.
            #8.5: Back over in that direction somewhere.
                      #6.5: Okay. Sot someplace,nearby inthis building where you
            sense that Kevin was there will be two other buildings.
            One that has some type of maple leaf pattern in front of
            it, and, oh, 100 yards or so away will be another building
            that has this umbrella shape to its rooft huh. That's
            .pretty good. Okay. Now, you said that you felt. like
            this was an isolated region.
            #8.5-. 1 don't remember saying that, but the feeling was... I
            looked around to see, you know, if I'm on the east side
            of town, the left side of town; I didn't see.any town.
            #6.5: Ahhh.
            #8.5: 1 had the feeling it might have been a valley or.something.
            #6.5: Okay. Can you tell me what .......
             #8.5: It obviously had water with the greenery which surprised
            me.
              #6.5: Okay. Can you toll me a little more why you felt that
            it was like a quasi-milita.ry area.
                   #8.5: Oh, when I first moved up in elevation, I looked around
            to try and,find something that...I always look for
            something that's unique... If I can say, hey, there's the
            Empire State building, okayo I know where I am. I was
            looking all around, and I saw people in white and I saw
            masts or something that reminded me of ships. Nbutibal"..
            And I.looked for water immediately. I didn't see any.
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           #8.5: Uh ... I thought it might have been ... military ... school
  of some kind. Not necessarily, not necessarily
  government sponsored. Butq it had the flavorp a
  nautical flavor and yet I saw no Water. The main building
  there had the kind of dignity and spit and polish that
  you might expect to the military academy or school.
           #6.5: Uh ... You mentioned somethingy and I don't know if it was
  just something that you had to dump or whether maybe it
  was something that we can reflect on that might be important.
  And, this was this ..... sense of bread or shape of bread or
  do you think that was just something that ......
           #8.5: Uh...I don't know. It was so strong, I just, I thought,
  gee, you know, here comes imagery that means nothing.
  And, it hung in so long, I dumped it. I have no idea.
           #6.5: Nothing that ties in with that, but I just wanted to make
  sure,
           #8.5: It looked like a big, round European type loaf that had
  about one-third of the end cut off. Not long loafs like
  we have, but big, fat ... like a big batch of dough just
  dumped on something flat and baked.
  #6.5: Okay. I'm sure you're just hungry.
  #8.5: Probably, probably.
           #6.5: What I would like to do now is put the tape in the pause
  mode, and~for us to look at some photographs that we have
  and see if we can't select these 4 people that I asked you
  to concentrate...and referring to your drawing number lt
  where you had a round face individual, a tall individual,
  someone who-was blond, and an older gentleman that were
  doing exercises with Kevin. We've gone through the,
  photos and, let's take them one at a time.,.now, out of
  all the photos we!' ve showed you, you f elt the blond
  individual resembled closely this individual right here.
  #8.5: Yes. The hair is ailittle longer and the individual
  I saw was rather well-built, muscular. Not like a weight
  lifter, but he was well-built, broad shouldered.
  #6.5: You feel very confident?
  #8.5: This, this guy looks very much like him.
           #6.5: Okay. The individual that is being discussed is
  Gregory Persingert P-e-r-s-i-n-g-e-r. Okay,very good.
  Thank you. Now the other one ..,the tall one...tallq
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  skinny one, you have picked out...someone whose been
  identified as Robert Engleman,,E-n-g-l-e-m-a-n. Now,
  you want to tell me about.....
           #8.5: 1 picked this guy because he was the only one that
  appeared very thin and of the right age group. Uh...
  the individual I saw must have been 6-2 or 3y'very
  thin. I don't know if this guy is tall. Buty the face
  would fit in that group.
           #6.5: Sure. How confident do't-you~feel,thatthis one as being
  Engleman as compared to the first one which. was Persinger
  which you felt pretty good about.
           #8.5: Ohp No comparison. I just picked this because of that
  type, but does not look like the individual..
           #6.5: Okay. Fine. I want to make sure. All right. So, what
  we're saying is Persinger you -probably feel pretty confident
  as one of the individuals.
  #8.5: Very confident.
  #6.5: Butq Engleman~ all you're saying is that someone that
  appears to look like him, but not necessarily Engleman.
  #8.5: That's right.
  #6.5: All right. Now, the third one that we want to talk about
  is the individual that you described as having a round
  face. Now, you identified two people that might be that
  category. One is a Joseph Subic, S-u-b-i-cj and the other
  one is a Steven Kirtley, K-i-r"t-l-e-y. Do you want to
  tell me a little bit more?
           #8.5: Well, after looking at the picture of a TV screen that's
  below the one of, you know his name,
  #6.5: Kirtley.
           #8.5: Kirtleyp uh...1 feel that is not the round face that I
  saw. The front view above looks about the same, but I
  would go for Subic. Built more like this and the same
  type of face. The hair up here is a little lighter than
  I saw it in the photo ... and the hair was. longer and darker.
  #6.5: No glasses. No glasses.
  #8.5:. At a gynasium you wouldn't expect them.
  8
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  #6.5-. Sure. Okay * Now the older gentleman....older gentleman...
  the older individual..iwe could not find anyone that you
  felt resembled that individual.
  #8.5: That individual's hair was brown, longer then any that
  I'd seen. Uh ... he could have fit the older gentleman
  with the white side-walls except I thought the photo
  looked about 5 years too old. That was about it.
  #6.5: Do you have anything else that you want to add?
  #8.5: 1 can't think of anything except this blond individual
  here. Feel very, very good.
  #6.5: Okay. Your impressions-you feel very good. All right.
  I thank you very much.
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  TARGET CUING INFORMATION
  REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION CD-25
  1. (S) The remote viewer has been exposed -to open source news media
  information as well as classified overhead imagery and numerous photographs
  of hostage personnel. He knew he would be working against the hostage
  situation in Iran.
  2. (S) At the time of the session the remote viewer was shown the attached
  photographs and was asked to find KEVIN HERMENLIPVC7. He was asked to identify
  HERMENING's location, describe his physical and mental condition, and to
  identify any other hostage personnel at this same location.
  3. (S) The remote viewer has been briefed on the current status (as of
  27 May 1980) of the hostage situationt and told that the whereabouts of the
  hostages was not known.
  ,%woo"
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