world and us it's not it's like i resist both empiricism inward and romanticism outward um so i'm definitely not a romantic saying we're projecting a meaning onto the world and i'm definitely not an empiricist saying we're just simply consuming it uh but i take it that you think there's there there's some and i'm sympathetic to this here's why i'm sympathetic to what i hear what i think i hear him you say like again this sense of autonomy the sense that people find realness inherently valuable in a way that transcends aesthetic epistemic and moral value and that they are willing to and onto normativity they are willing to totally transform their existence to to get to conform to this because it in itself is somehow intrinsically and the word the word is not quite right it's good but in plato's sense of the good right it's not good in our current moral or or consumatory sense of good yes am i getting closer to yeah yeah let me let me let me let me let me maybe point like fraser as in a more pointed way to use something which is not quite um esoteric or transcendent as a transformative experience something which is more mundane which is more relatable i think in in a moment of of um let's say loving sexual intimacy right which is which experience which many people know where there's a sense that that this moment is like the only thing that matters in existence and if this went on forever that would be fine and if all the existence was just for this moment that would be that would that would be sufficient particularly in a deep um sort of in a deep interperson is is that is that is that a space that i can conjure that you agree with totally and i mean if you remember the series i explicitly talk about this as the final moment that ultimately stoicism sits on that point of joy where joy is not pleasure but exactly that moment where you say if i live forever or i die tomorrow it doesn't there's no difference yes that's exactly the point yes okay so then let me ask you then in would you describe that experience as a co