of reaching towards on his own he's continuing towards the transcendent transforming experience and and at least maybe the way i understand it i began to sort of move towards what i some sort of phenomenology of a flow experience and in my mind that was that was the wrong like existential posture to be moving towards i'm sitting in better if i want to move towards what how i conceptualize a transformative mystical experience not that i planned on getting there you know at 7am but at least to like be in that space to stop my day on it on a good foot it's it had nothing in my mind to do with the flow state and and to any of that language around it in my mind i had to just do with simply trying to be silent and trying to be as bizarre as that mysterious word is to to be in my body to be present to be there was there was nothing flowy about it and there was nothing there was nothing it didn't seem to it didn't seem to move on to that continuum as you phase that and that's just a personal anecdotal reflection that yeah well i mean i i think we should maybe draw this to close we've been two hours and um that's usually much beyond what i do on voices with verviki um i think that's a valuable point um i try to make it uh that um i like let me let me try and give you a quick analogy um and this is work i'm publishing with dan chappie because it i think it's it's of the it's of the same genus of the problem you're posing okay so remember we talked about vr a sense of presence yes and you're invoking something like a sense of presence in what you're just describing there so i think that that's fair okay and so a proposal of how they get uh vr one of my my students uh uh gary avahannasen has actually proposed that what gives people a sense of presence in virtual reality is the flow state and that seems very plausible because it's not very similar to like people can can get into the flow state they get a sense of presence with tetris which is like what they're not that doesn't look like the world at all okay now that's very