plausible and it's a good paper and i think it points to an important thing but here's the thing and this is the problem that dan and i dan chappie and i are wrestling they're scientists who use the rovers on mars get a sense of being on mars as the rover and there's no way they can be getting into the flow state because of the time delay there's no joystick control all they're getting is batches of photos and they're using all this imagine where they imagine being the rover and they will actually enact the rover i don't know if you've seen it right and they're doing all of this stuff and there's no way it's the flow state but they're nevertheless getting presents okay and the argument i made was right it's not to think of the flow state like i i i get it the language of continuum is misleading because it sometimes just means more of right but the idea is fluency and insight in the flow state are all ways in which we are sort of expanding the scope of our optimal grip which it does not necessarily always translate into so what's happening is these scientists are not getting into the flow state but they're using their their their anthropomorphizing the rover and they're technomorphizing themselves so they get a participatory relationship and they even say weird magical things about it like they'll say things you know i was gardening and my right wrist got stuck and then i went and to the lab and spirit's right wheel was stuck and well i don't know there's some kind of weird sympathy and they laugh because they're scientists and they don't know what to do with that okay so i i'm just i'm not i'm not i'm not countenancing their their metaphysical claims i'm pointing to their there's a phenomenological experience and it's pronounced right and so it's clear it's not in the flow state but they're getting a kind they're getting a powerful sense of identification and it's effective it's it's a it's a distributed kind of optimal grip and what i was trying to get at now i think there are mystical experiences that are just