der to exist yeah that's that's a that's a really really really really exciting um avenue to explore and i think it connects both of those discussions of this question and espinoza question um and and and i i never mentioned it but but my own my own feeling is that that the propositions are best not to be derived from the experience but from the theory itself so i i'm i'm in strong component with what you're saying and i i would love to get into that because it's really something which i'm working on on my own to to say what is the best case the best metaphysical case for that um so that's that's that's awesome thank you we're great there's a there's a book by nicholas maxwell who i had the pleasure to meet he talks about the uh the comprehensibility of the universe as the fundamental presupposition of science yes yes and berman is making a a just a brilliant case that science depends on sort of of platonic forms uh that brilliant book brilliant tightly argued and very current so anyways let's call it let's call it quits there uh we're doing the john paul start thing we we we don't end anything we're just abandoning it when it's convenient but this was wonderful thank you so much for coming on this is part two and maybe we'll ping pong back maybe go back to you for part three and we can come back here for part four and we'll and we'll have a four-part series on maybe we can call it something like the philosophy and cogsi of mysticism because or something like that where we're trying to get you know we're coming at this from different angles but we're they reach enough towards each other where we get i think very we we get into the logos we we we play off of each other and things emerge so um yes i john i want to say thank you to you for your graciousness and your and your your humbleness in in dialogue i mean i i'm i'm probably young enough to be to be your child i have i have no i have no official standing or recognition i'm just a guy who's interested in the topic who picked up books and started reading and the