s on optimal grip and then you want divergence for elegance is that okay so far yeah yeah and i have to establish this because this is this is going to be jermaine to my argument for justifying mystical transformations okay would i be mistaken in in simplifying elegance as um explanatory and and predictive um it it depends what you mean by that because i mean a lot of plausibility doesn't have to be at the propositional level plausibility can also be the degree to which trait like that a particular construct and you know kuhn and others have pointed this out gives me sets of skills for the world so that i can do science like it opens up so often things are want to be careful they're often believed not just because they explain but also because they train they train particular sets of skills that allow the scientists to do the field work or make new kinds of observations so if i give you not only rules but tools you'll like a construct like you'll like a construct if it gives you rules you'll like a construct if it gives you tools but if it gives you tools and rules well like if i've got e equals mc squared i've got this massive explanatory thing relativity but it also allows me to make atomic weapons and i'm not making an ethical claim here but that's a very very very powerful tool right one of the reasons why we believe in you know relativity is precisely because wow you know if i if i do this really odd counter factual counter intuitive thing i can take a paper clips worth of matter and i could smash a city to the ground so i want to be clear if you mean if you broaden it to me not only tools but rules then yes something like that no no no no no yeah yeah i get i get that expansion i'm curious and this this is something that came up before when you mentioned crosstalk uh progress are we presupposing um a an ontology here of what is good that we're progressing to i mean you just brought a counterexample that a tool can be effective even if it's not if even if it's detrimental is there is is there a presuppositio