n of what is of progress so that's what we mean there i mean so and again it depends on our topic i'm talking about plausibility in general we move back to science i think science and science presupposes epistemic progress i don't think science presupposes moral progress um that's a sort of a long discussion we could get into but i don't think most scientists um presuppose that they what the the way what does epistemic progress mean epistemic progress means that it is sorry i'm going to invoke this but we're trying to discharge it it's plausible that we i can build on previous knowledge right and that that there's a general advance so that that cultural ratcheting is a real phenomena cultural ratcheting means that unlike most organisms we don't have to start from scratch we have all of this knowledge from which we can build more knowledge kind of thing is it fallible do we discover that we have to revise it yes but nevertheless we seem to be engaging in constant cultural ratcheting whether or not and i i'm not i'm not a spencerian darwinist or anything like that social darwinism i don't think there's any necessary connection between cultural ratcheting and and moral progress they can become unglued from each other yeah yeah we have i think we have good evidence of that yes yes very good okay so trustworth trustworthiness for uh sorry conversions for trustworthiness optimal gripping divergence for elegance and then balance between them this goes from work from elijah milgram but also empirical work namely if if you're gonna if you're gonna really apply your construct in many different areas you want it to be extremely trustworthy right so what you can see so you want to balance if if if if it's not going to apply very much i don't require much trustworthiness so you say i really like vanilla ice cream okay like that's not gonna like that's not gonna open up the world in a profound way so i don't need a lot of trustworthy evidence uh for for the cl the deposit that you like vanilla ice cream even like it a lot but