know i have quite a bit of empirical evidence and uh psychological and cognitive scientific theory and we know about how that it is predictive of people transforming their lives so i'm very interested in this because it overlaps with my concern with wisdom my main concern is where and how does mystical experience overlap with the cultivation of wisdom so again i'm not claiming this exhaustive i'm but i claiming it's important these higher states of consciousness and so first of all what's the phenomenological description and then what would descriptive atticus would be could we explain those phenomena right those phenomenological characteristics in terms of very well understood cognitive processes and we made that argument around things like insight and flow and decentering and and things like that so we basically made and and zebby was uh you know excellent as um you know uh as a skeptical and also supportive interlocutor and he did this wonderful dance between them which uh well i think that was exemplary so i'm i'm going to take it uh that that this the case for the descriptive adequacy has been made plausible um and then what i want to do is move into uh the prescript prescriptive adequacy prescriptive adequacy is not to say yes it's genuinely the case that these experiences occur and we can explain how they occur this is a different thing that's that's descriptive adequacy prescriptive adequacy is yet yeah but should people pursue them that's a different thing is it justifiable to pursue them is it something that you would rationally recommend to another human being to do that's the prescriptive adequacy and so i want to make an argument that um that we can actually make a good prescriptive case for why people should and i want to qualify it later under the right context in the right way etc but right now just more boldly that people should pursue uh seeking out these kinds of experiences uh if you'll allow me this and this is a gesture towards my friend i'm gonna prescribe that people should be seekers of