hat's why first of all uh i did the limit that i was trying to talk about a specific thing uh because and i think we agreed that mystical mysticism mystical experience is a family resemblance theory it's it's got a lot of overlapping things running through it like a game but what i would want to say is that um one way of arguing is um is it is it justifiable methodologically to limit it to that and i have uh because again there's lots of data and secondly these are the experiences that that track in a way where people do two things that i need for prescriptive they make significant changes in their identity and their life right but you can say right other things but they do so in a way that by sort of uh at least interpersonal or intersubjective or perhaps i'd be bolder to say objective measures they are actually getting they are actually making their lives and their selves better i mean that's kind of the work that's coming out of yaden and a whole bunch of work that uh no these people are getting better and now what you might be saying is aren't there things that are called mystical experiences where people come out of it and they're kind of crazy um well that goes towards a point i want to so i made a methodological argument now i want to make another argument which is um i and and you and i are already negotiating on this so i i'm going to say this in a slightly provocative way and then i know that'll call you out right so i'll present presented how i how i have presented in the past which is what we're talking about is something like the cultivation of wisdom that what we're talking about is something much more like rationality than a particular theoretical claim we're talking about the improvement of skills obviously states of mind and ultimately identity so we're talking about improving your procedural your perspectival and your participatory knowing and those kinds of improvements um are are are is it plausible that those improvements will occur i've made a case that it's plausible that those those improv