ts and try to and thereby give sort of this notice what i'm doing a convergence argument i'm trying to generate increased possibility absolutely so i guess what i want to say though is um i i wanted to i i guess i want to be really i want to be really respectful and sensitive to what you've said but on the other hand i want to our culture is obsessed with propositions right it's really obsessed with propositions um and and and and infra inference and part of what i'm trying to argue for let me try it this way i'm trying to argue for the rationality of these experiences but because what they do is reliably improve your ability to get into contact with what's real right and be in right relationship and i think that's the ultimate obligation of rationality that's the ultimate you know obligation to the logos um and i tried to argue this before right that that there are for that there are forms of rationality that go outside of propositional inferential rationality yeah and and and the reason why that's central to our argument and this goes and i wanted to bring this up it's the work of l.a paul she literally wrote the book on transformative experience and the main argument she makes there is you cannot propositionally infer your way through a transformative experience it doesn't work you can't do that um and you have to drop out in because it has to do with it has to do with perspectival and participatory knowing she uses slightly different terms but i have i've mapped those on to her terms in her presence and she was happy with that so i'm not worried about that um and so i i think that there and agnes callard has talked about this as proleptic rationality the idea that whenever we're going through significant developmental transformation we cannot infer our way through it i mean it goes back to an old argument by folder you can't infer a stronger logic from a weaker logic you just can't do it so you need not there has to be if we're trying to get people to go through the transformation even of becoming more infere