se strategies in order to become more rational the process of becoming more rational can't itself be an irrational process that makes no sense that's a deep performative contradiction so the processes that make us more rational have to be included in our definition of rationality and these are the processes i've been pointing to yeah would you say that that that outside of the propositional um there are other ways which the mystic tries to point to this transformation um and those may be performative they may be evocative maybe um whether that's in i mean you see you see it happening in in poetry you see it happening in art you see you see it happening in the way which they live forth those things would you include those as well as part of very much very much i mean you know as the child is to the adult the adult is to the sage you know you know and there was a proverb growing up i don't know if it's still around you know uh children pay attention to what you do what more much more than what you say right and so they're mot they're internalizing you as a comprehensive model of the procedural the perspectival and the participatory they're identifying with you they're getting their meta perspectival ability which is central to wisdom from internalizing your perspective they catch skills they catch points of view from all of that and that is going to be much more profound um than your propositional admonitions admonitions not that those not those shouldn't be spoken or they don't matter i'm not saying that but we know that you know again it's much more what you do than what you say and therefore uh it's much more likely that the mystic is going to can is going to convey by x by exemplification rather than just pure explanation and in fact they're going to tailor their explanations to constantly be in service of provocative ex exemplification they have to be or again they're going to be engaging in a kind of performative contradiction yes yeah i think i think that i think that's true and i think i think it also stand