that ultimately this is going to turn on is who is going to be and i don't mean just one it could be more than one but you know when you get more than one you just gets problematic but anyways right who's going to be the exemplar for you that's to me that's almost like the kirker guardian existential choice and like you can't you can you can't make it just running off like reading their propositions you you have to try and bring them to life give them voice welcome them into living dear logos sorry i'm going off on something but this is just a question yeah i i i think it's a great tangent i want to i want to um really agree and disagree with you okay uh one i'll begin by agreeing [Laughter] so that if the disagreement is is grievous enough egregious enough at least we'll at least i'll have a chance to agree okay um the the the the point the point i like to agree with first um and to repay the compliment is that is that i think that um more more than any of the propositions which i received from you john and you've put out a lot of proposition work and a lot of good evidence and you're a man of science and that's uh really really terrific it's it's been the the experience of being in relation with you and and experiencing care and concern and generosity humiliating conversation that's been um most transformative for me um and the thing which will last with me longer so that's a point of first personal agreement uh and and returning compliments so thank you for that now now to disagree okay um um i think that i i'm wondering it seems to me like you've made a bit of a leap here um and you haven't done the work to show the i'm acknowledging the very real possibility that that has happened okay okay okay so so where where i think that leap is i think i think that there is a necessity for this um for the proleptic for the participatory for this it's more than positional for for the for the for the experiencing and not just the hearing but but i don't know why necessarily um why why by logical necessity it must be done