m saying yeah i i'm hearing i'm hearing um i'm hearing the direction of a possibility argument uh but not necessarily a a necessity argument but but um well yeah i mean uh i'm not trying to preclude that there might be something more there i do think that there are also mind-like things about the ecology like say of a forest um that you know and uh alicia uraro makes the argument you get you got to sort of get your mind into like a dynamical system state itself through narrative or other such things in order to pick up on you know the implicit learning picking up on that complex dynamic patterns and you may use imaginal strategies to do that like children use imaginal strategies to develop the requisite identities and skills and states of mind um and so i think like i doubt that if you just simply dropped somebody in some completely foreign environment of nature that would necessarily trigger a mystical experience i think they'd just probably be overwhelmed but if they had proper education about how to enter into it then it strikes me that that would be plausible uh it strikes me as possible that they could get a mystical experience out of it yeah you know you know what's interesting that's coming up in this regard is there's there's a tradition of muslim philosophy um and i think there's two cases there's one from it been rushed i think it is um who he has this thought experiment of the other person just floating in the in the either um and there's another one of uh there's another one which is a philosophical novel of this fellow who's dropped on an island and he comes to the same enlightenment that's that uh that that that islam provides and then he comes back to civilization and there's a sort of this whole dialogue between um so there i mean the the motif of the philosopher slash mystic as the recluse as the alone to the alone as the as the one who who who come to these realizations um is is it is it's an interesting it's interesting that you're rejecting that um and it'll be interesting to to sort of to see