there's a proleptic rationality to the serious play you can't infer your way through it how do you overcome like how do you go through transformative experience i've got a lot of argument out there you deal with children to do you have to go through the serious play right you have to create that play space and and that is where you make those procedural and perspectival and participatory transformations that are necessary for you to come into right relationship with the real so if you could show that they're systemic they're systematic and they're reliable for realizing that you can justify that practice as proleptically rational yes yes yes that that works that makes sense so i i should uh i should start wrapping this up because if we keep going that's going to be too long and i think i i think you i'm i'm exhausting you too and i it's much later for you than it is for me so i don't want to keep you too much longer i just wanted to um thank you you did a great job at drawing me out um and drawing me forth and challenging me and and pushing on me with affection and respect so i really appreciated that i think this is a great place uh to sort of finish our our series and um and so i'm looking forward to our next one with you and i and guy i think it'll be uh really really wonderful but thank you for being such a such a powerfully present and participatory partner in what we've what we've done together so thank you very much thank you i really i really appreciate that deeply i think i think that it's a real challenge to to try and maintain that that that presence and that balance between being critical and appreciative particularly doing it through a screen i think this is a whole new challenge for yeah yeah yeah i mean i i've learned so much um about doing that from you in conversation um and so so thank thank you for that and i think yeah i really do i do i i can go with you this is quite a beautiful conclusion to to this to this series it's come to a nice slow gradual nice landing as we as we're here and i am i