of these channels but it's nevertheless profound um so uh for example presence we know from uh vr virtual reality research that this varies independent of very similar various similitude right you can have a very realistic virtual world and people don't feel it's real because they don't get that sense of presence uh that's important and perspectival uh you of course get all kinds of weird derealizations uh you know that can be pathological where where the participatory is lost um uh you know where people think that all of their loved ones are actually have been replaced by robots um even though everything nothing else has changed factually there's that sense of fittedness gets damaged in the brain and these are they'll leave it and there's other symptoms where syndromes where their own arm right is like this isn't my arm right it looks exactly like my arm and i can move it but it's not my arm there there's that um and of course we we have less pathological although not necessarily less dangerous versions in loneliness right when and in culture shock um and so that's where you can see the sense of realness disappearing at the participatory level the perspectival level the procedural level of course we all know this when we feel very inept um think of something like although it is conflated with some of the other but even like social awkwardness and we we get right we fee we we feel disempowered or futile so one of the ways of making people feel that their existence is becoming unreal is if they're procedurally inept they their actions are futile and then of course at the level of you know conviction and coherence we know that right if things don't hang together well for people they also that can be undermining of their sense of realness and cognitive dissonances fascinating and all that evidence sorry that was a long thing but what i'm trying to say is right i think i am in agreement with you about sacredness and realness and the multi-dimensionality of realness is something that i'm trying to unpack in terms of