saying yeah 'm hearing 'm hearing um 'm hearing direction possibility argument uh necessarily necessity argument um well yeah mean uh 'm trying preclude might something think also mind-like things ecology like say forest um know uh alicia uraro makes argument get got sort get mind like dynamical system state narrative things order pick know implicit learning picking complex dynamic patterns may use imaginal strategies like children use imaginal strategies develop requisite identities skills states mind um think like doubt simply dropped somebody completely foreign environment nature would necessarily trigger mystical experience think 'd probably overwhelmed proper education enter strikes would plausible uh strikes possible could get mystical experience yeah know know 's interesting 's coming regard 's 's tradition muslim philosophy um think 's two cases 's one rushed think um thought experiment person floating either um 's another one uh 's another one philosophical novel fellow 's dropped island comes enlightenment 's uh islam provides comes back civilization 's sort whole dialogue um mean motif philosopher slash mystic recluse alone alone one come realizations um 's interesting 's interesting 're rejecting um 'll interesting sort see